"I never made a DOAC trailer in a bid to go viral": Anthony Smith on doing things differently, and choosing to start again

Anthony Smith, the former head of trailers for The Diary of a CEO, had never listened to a podcast before he joined the show. And yet just four and a half years later, he'd conceptualised an industry standard, bringing film-style trailers to the podcasting world and helping the show notch more than 18.5 million subscribers.

Now, he's one of several senior figures who have departed DOAC in recent months, taking a leap with nothing lined up.

In an exclusive interview with The Daily Influence, Smith talks about why he made the move, why being an outsider can be a “superpower in a world of trends and copying”, and what comes next.

TDI (Victoria Ibitoye): You've spent four and a half years helping build one of the world's biggest podcasts, and your departure comes after several other senior figures have left DOAC over the past year. Why was this the right time for you to go, and how do you see that wider wave of departures?

Anthony Smith: When you’re part of something like DOAC, I don’t think there’s ever one reason for making that decision. It’s like ending a relationship, there are multiple reasons, both good and bad, but deep down you also know that it’s the right time.

It was emotional, it was scary but it also felt like the right moment for me to start a new chapter, fall in love with documentaries and also continue a goal to help contribute towards a future where all of the content we watch online is made with heart, is entertaining and valuable.

Ultimately, I was part of one of the most dedicated, caring, talented teams of people I’d ever met. We all came from very different walks of life, such varied experience, apart from the podcast industry ironically, and went on this incredible, challenging journey together with DOAC.

TDI: Looking back on your time at DOAC, what are you most proud of as a creative? Was there a moment when you thought, “We've built something really special”?

Smith: From my first day at DOAC until my last, I was editing, I was teaching, I was going a million miles per hour and putting in a hard graft to ensure that every trailer met the standards we set ourselves. And with that you find very little time for reflection until I left and was able to take a huge step back from it all.

I think what I’m most proud of is the perseverance towards the style of trailers we wanted to make, because when you’re creating something that’s not been done in an industry before, you are met with a lot of doubt, hesitation, sometimes mockery and resistance, because I guess that’s what happens whenever there is something new.

But the fact that we always felt DOAC was more than a podcast and that I was so confident that this style of promotion represented the show so well, that perseverance to not listen and act upon that initial resistance from the outside world is something I’m so thankful for. It’s hard to pursue something when people are telling you you’re wrong but ultimately it worked out great in the end.

And I think that moment came on Tim Grover’s trailer, with that opening hook about Michael Jordan. I remember watching the raw footage, it was around 6am, I was wrapped up in my dressing gown, downing an energy drink, the pressure was already on me to get a narrative done, ready for feedback, and I just remember being so gripped by this man’s story, his pain, his heartache, his rise and his lessons.

All the stars just seemed to align to turn his hook into a cinematic moment, an opening you’d want to watch on a cinema screen, a screen worthy of this man’s story, and that’s when I think people started to understand what we’re creating.

TDI: You came into podcasting from a film background rather than the podcast industry. Do you think being an outsider became your biggest advantage?

Smith: 100%. In fact I don’t think any of the OG squad was working in podcasts before DOAC, and I think that allowed us to see the show in a whole new way and therefore shoot, distribute and promote it in a new way.

I’d never watched/listened to a podcast before this job and one of the first things Steve said to me was “I don’t want you to watch any podcasts to research, I want you to do what you think is best for DOAC”. And that’s what I done.

Often times being the outsider gives you a different perspective. It can often be met with resistance from those on the inside because people often don’t like change, but when it works, the impact is incredible.

I’ve often gone through life feeling okay that I’m a bit of an outsider. I was the kid that played football at lunchtime and then done ballet at the weekend. But it’s allowed me to ask the stupidest questions and made me so curious in everything I find interesting, which can really be a superpower in a world of trends and copying.

TDI: You recently spoke about the industry's obsession with virality. If views have become a vanity metric, what should creators and brands actually be optimising for instead? And how much weight do you give data versus instinct?

Smith: I really have a love-hate relationship with virality, because I understand its pros. It allows you to be seen by more people, you may get an influx of new followers, it could fast track you to where you want to be.

But, I also think that it should be the by-product of more important metrics such as retention, building a community through engagement, and ultimately creating content that is consumed by those who value you, your brand and your product/service.

If you’re wanting to go viral for the sake of going viral or because you’re pinning all of your success hopes on views, ultimately I believe you’re playing a dangerous game for you and your company, and unfortunately, I think that going viral is the biggest goal for a lot of creators and brands.

This is why I never made a DOAC trailer in a bid to go viral. I wanted it to relate to as many pockets of audiences as possible, I wanted to entice enough people to go and watch a full two hour podcast and I wanted to entertain people along with offering some value.

Going viral was often a by-product of creating a piece of content that achieved all of those goals first, which I felt was led by around 30% data and 70% experience/instincts as a storyteller.

TDI: Creators are under more pressure than ever to become founders. Is that healthy, or are we asking too much of them?

Smith: The creator economy can really be a beautiful thing. It can allow anyone to not only pursue what they’re passionate about, but also make a strong living from it, and I just think that the barrier to entry now is lower, meaning people like me can, if we wanted to, take a stab at building something for ourselves through our skill.

That being said, is it for everybody, definitely not, and I’ve not yet met a founder who said “starting a company is the easiest thing I’ve ever done”. But they do say it gives them so much purpose, which ultimately is what every human strives for.

So, I don’t think it’s for everyone, and there is definitely a world where you can be a creator and not have to build a personal brand and become a founder. But, that’s a conversation they need to have with themselves because the depiction of that “founder lifestyle” we often see on social media, is often only half the story, and a lot of people fall into the trap of wanting all of the upside without understanding the downside.

TDI: What's the biggest lesson about storytelling every creator and brand should understand?

Smith: The biggest lesson about storytelling for me is every single one of us has some sort of story to tell AND every single one of us CAN learn to tell them.

Storytelling is one of the most powerful skills you can learn, to the extent that it can change how people feel, what people believe and how people act. And unfortunately there will be people who use that skill for evil, but imagine a world where more people used that power for good.

TDI: You've repeatedly stepped into uncertainty, including leaving DOAC with nothing lined up. What keeps pulling you towards those risks, and what's your creative North Star?

Smith: This question genuinely made me laugh out loud! You know what, I have no idea. Maybe it’s an addiction, maybe it’s a constant call for adventure. All I know is that it’s happened a lot throughout my life, and whenever I make these decisions I am terrified. But whenever I look back, I wouldn’t have it any other way.

My creative North Star, I’m not sure I’ll ever know. I love documentaries, that’s such a huge passion of mine, and so I would love to explore that industry a lot more, but ultimately, I just want to tell stories and through everything I make, I want to give people an opportunity to escape this reality and enter a new world full of emotion, trials, conflicts and success.

If I can live the rest of my life telling stories and helping people tell theirs, I’ll be forever grateful.